Friday, November 30, 2012

Production poll results

I think the results of the poll are pretty clear.  Although a lot of people think that we should allow 15 round capacity, and a few "anything goes" the vast majority agree that we should closely follow USPSA Production equipment rules.

After monitoring the debate and comments I think the concensus is that we allow people who want to shoot USPSA Production type equipment have the Production division, and anyone who wants to shoot a production type gun with modifications and/or high capacity mags can shoot in Limited and be at no real disadvantage.

Limited, and Open equipment rules are already very close to USPSA so I think we should leave them the same, with no major and minor power factors.

Revolver should also remain tied to USPSA equipment rules as far as I am concerned.

Single Stack....Ah, that is interesting.  Hence the next poll.

USPSA Single stack is messed up in my opinion.  The one thing I heartily disagree with is that minor calibers may load 10 rounds in a mg while major may only load 8.  That's not going to work for us for sure because there is no major or minor in IMGA/Time Plus scoring.  So what do we do?

The four choices don't show up well in the poll.  They are:

- Allow only 8 rounds in any caliber
- Allow 10 rounds in any caliber
- Allow only eight in .45 but ten in 9mm or .40
- Allow only 8 in .40 or .45 but ten in 9mm

And please comment.  Remember Anonymous comments don't carry as much weight as ones that the owner is not afraid of.


Unknown said...

Everyone load 8.

Howard C. Thompson said...

Would you care to elaborate on that? You may sway more people if you tell us why you think 8 is the answer. Maybe you've thought of something I haven't.

Allen said...

I vote 8 rounds for 45 and 10 for .40/ 9mm. It allows those that want to shoot .45 an option using the most common magazine size to that option. It also mirrors other shooting sports rules, so there isn't new equipment to buy if they want to be competative at our matches.

Paul said...

I'm with Allen.
We want everyone to be able to shoot our matches without making big changes to what they already do.
People tend to not like change.
We want to ease them into a better shooting experience then what they are used to.
It's all the fun you are used to with a much better (& more enjoyable) scoring system.
Once everyone plays at the best playground, we can evaluate if there is a consensus that something needs adjusting.
I think it might affect attendance if people think," I'd love to go try one of those new style IWLA matches,,,, but I hear you need to buy bla-bla-bla to be competitive..."
Just the humble opinion of a double stack shooter........

John L. said...

I agree with Paul and Allen. 8 for 45 and 10 for .40 and 9. It seems that scoring would be less complicated too. Your division choices would be single stack 45 or .40/9. Keep it simple.

TOM L. said...

Allow 10 for all . most steel shoots allow 10 for all. If ur quick enough use 8. You'll beat me eitherway. Tom L.

CJW said...

Howard, my take is that there is no need for a 1911 specific division, so much as a low-capacity division that allows single action firearms.

I would say call the division Lim-10 and be done with it. Let everyone load 10 regardless of caliber. If there are no power factors, I think you'd want to avoid cartridge specific rules within divisions.

From the point of view of maintaining compatibility with USPSA, any Single Stack gun can shoot Lim-10, but not every Lim-10 gun can shoot Single Stack, and a Lim-10 gun doesn't have the capacity to be competitive against Limited guns.

Colin W.

Rob said...

We're talking pistol only shooters, right? Follow the USPSA division rules, as people may want match practice to compete at other clubs.

If you're using a single stack pistol in 3g/2g, then you're probably shooting heavy metal anyway. If you're shooting TacOpts with a single stack, use up to a 140mm mag length. You'll still be at a disadvantage capacity wise, but that's your choice. Break out some polymer wunder-9, or shell out the bucks for a 2011 platform.

I like the KISS principle. USPSA divisons for pistol only, York/IMGA for multi-gun. Done.

Jeremy M said...

While I don't shoot Single Stack, I would think 8 in the mag should be the max since there's no power factor. This way the stage can be shot the same for all calibers. Having 10 in the mag instead of 8 could mean two extra targets you can engage before a reload. Remember depending on the target and the stage desription you might only need ONE in the A Zone.

Gary S said...

I have always disagreed with USPSA single stack mag capacities, it give the minor shooter a distinct advantage, in my mind.

We decided to support USPSA pistol shooter by keeping USPSA gear divisions. While unpleasant, we should be consistent. I say stick with USPSA divisions this year, and re eval for next year baseon interest, and wear and tear on our stats guys.

Buddy Knight said...

I think it should be 8 for single stack. If you want to load ten shoot production.

Marty said...

I agree with Buddy, shoot 8 in single stack, if you want to shoot 10 why not just call it production?

Howard C. Thompson said...

Production must be a double action, or safe action pistol whereas Single Stack pistols must be a single action automatic with all of the bullets in a single column in the magazine. The two guns are not interchangable regardless of capacity rules.

However either can be loaded to 10 rounds and shot in L10, as can double stack single action pistols.

As to Rob's comment, while it would seem simple to just keep things the same as USPSA, without power factor the rules for single stack mag capacity do not apply.

In my opinion just say it is a 10 round division like Production and if 45 shooters don't want to buy 10 round mags that's cool. However, I'd bet most of them already have them. The only consistently SS shooter to chime in so far is Tom, and I know he's in favor of 10.

The truth of the matter is we rarely had enough to pay SS in the past few years and it's not likely we ever will again. Therefore it is a fairly moot point.

That being said I will go with the majority opinion should we establish one.

Rob said...

I typically only shoot SS once or twice a year, but I respectfully disagree with Howard. SS is not just about the PF, it is also about the gospel of John Moses Browning. Specifically, the magazine length. A 10 round 45 mag is waaaaay too long to fix in the "box". No, we're not going to break out the box to test someone's gear, but I think pistol divisions should follow an existing defined rule set. Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel?

I'm afraid that we will fall into the trap of other outlaw clubs, namely by creating a unique set of rules that have no application anywhere else but here. The sword cuts both ways, the flexibility to do whatever you want but being so unique to the point that shooters don't know which end is up.

Howard C. Thompson said...

While I believe in the genius of John Moses Browning (I wanted to name my son that, but wife overuled me)but I believe his mags only held 7. Now who wants to do that? You might as well shoot a revolver.

And whens the last time you saw a box in a real life application?

I don't want to start something that is too far from any other organizations rules but I'm looking at this from an RO/MD perspective. 8 for this single stack and 10 for that one is complex. When I'm ROing I like to check the scoresheet and see a division and know what the shooter should have right away. I don't want to think about subsets and exceptions.

USPSAs SS rules are messed up. I think they give minor calibers a definite advantage. In time plus it would be even more so if we let some calibers hold more ammo.

If 8 is the number then 8 it is. All the time. I went with 10 because the SS guys I know (Tom and Chet)wanted 10. I don't really care but I'm against giving 9mm or 40 an advantage over 45.

Besides Single Stack firearms have been obsolete for nearly 90 years now. Don't you think it's time to upgrade to a hi-cap?

Gary S said...

Sooooo, if our single stackers want 10, let them eat 10. Any other real live single stackers out there care?

When I shoot SS it is for the fun of it, so it really doesn't matter to me.

Rob said...

Aw-naw-u-did-ent!! (insert finger wag and neck wiggle here)

I knew someone would play "R" card! That's revo, in case you were wondering.

I'm not a big single stacker, if those who are want 10, more power to them. I've expressed my opinion, let the chips fall. Having three different start positions in the back pits (MG, carbine, pistol), plus up to six divisions in pistol alone makes stats a nightmare. Let's call it 10 and done. That's the beauty of outlaw, right?

TOM L. said...

AS U NO SS is my game in .45acp. I do have a 9 with 10 round mags as std equip.(why wasn't this set up by the builders with 8??). JMB did build for 7.(thanks Howard) How did we get to 8? My STAND IS THE SAME 10 ROUND MAGS!! I will always be there with my SS in 45acp, will you??

Rob said...


Come on over to the wheel, you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner!

TOM L. said...


Never gave this a thought, but I will now!

Gary S said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gary S said...

Tom next time out i'LL BE 10 round 45 baby!!

TOM L. said...

Gary, Welcome to the 45 brass pickers club. At least there will be 2 of us.

James Fort said...

8 or 10 neithers a sin. Sneak a round and have 9 or11 which is like heaven.