York's first Falling Steel Match is announced!

On October 14th and 15th, York will be hosting our first Falling Steel Match. The match will be a half day format, and consist of 6 stages of 25-35 falling steel targets each. There are 9 gun categories, as well as team options, and you can shoot more than one time slot with the same or different guns.

Think FunShoot on steroids and on the clock!

For more details and the application, go to http://tinyurl.com/York-Falling-Steel

Monday, February 25, 2013

Scoring and Rules quiz 2

The second in our series of quizzes on rules and scoring.  The answers are in the comments.

1. Competitor X engages the required targets with his shotgun and safely grounds it in the same barrel where he had previously grounded his rifle.  Is this allowed?  If not, what is the penalty?


2. Can you use a 48 round mag in Tac Ops division?


3. Competitor Y thinks the firing pin in his rifle is broken and wants to take his bolt carrier group out and check it.  Where should he do this?


4. A claybird, correctly engaged with a shotgun only has one pellet sized and shaped hole in it.  Is it a hit or a miss?


5. Competitor Z shoots stage 7 in 48.80 seconds.  Upon checking his targets you notice one of the paper targets has no "A" hits and only one "C" hit.  What is his total time for the stage?

24 comments:

Howard C. Thompson said...

1. Rule 2.5.3.3 says you may not bunker two guns in the same location. The penalty is a match disqualification.

2. Rule 5.3.4.6 specifies that rifle magazines in Tac Ops may not exceed 7.5" in length. Basically only 30 round, or less, mags without base pads may be used. No 48 rounders, no Beta mags, no Surefire mags. The penalty for getting caught is you get moved to open.

3. Firearms may only be handled in designated safety areas as per rule 2.2

4. Rule 6.1.7 states that a piece must be visibly detached from a clay bird for it to be considered hit. Knocking a hole in it, even one small one surely detaches a piece. It is a hit.

5. A target that is not "neutralized" or has only one hit in the outer scoring areas (not the "A" zone is penalized 5 seconds. If the raw time was 48.80 seconds the total time is now 53.80 seconds.

Peter P said...

I know the answer to Q1 really well. Is Q2 on Rule 5.3.4.6 new this year? or it wasn't enforce last year?


Peter P

Paul said...

Here is something else to ponder because I almost did it last year but was not called on it.
In my rush to bunker my shotgun I had it almost all the way in the bunker along with my rifle, but before I released it I realized what happened and pulled it back out of the bunker and safely placed it in the other bunker. (As I was in the process I happened to hear people doing the old "he did something wrong groan" as the shotgun was going into the barrel and I caught myself!)

Is it a DQ when the problem happens, or when the action is finished? i.e. when the gun goes into the bunker with the rifle or when your hand releases the second gun in the bunker???

I thought I remembered running a 48 rounder last year somewhere along the line...........

Howard C. Thompson said...

Last year using 48 rounders was legal. 5.3.4.6 is a new rule.

The way bunkering safely is enforced is once you take your hand off you completed the act. Up until that time you can save yourself.

Joe P said...

If RO'n Paul's scenario, is the RO permitted to yell something like NO NO NO in an effort to save the shooter from being DQ'd or would that be considered coaching?

Mike Stephens said...

Joe P - here's my take ... as an RO at our club, why would you let somebody do something that would get them DQ'd or do something to put your safety, the safety of others around you, or the club at risk? I would consider that being a good safety officer at our monthly matches. Besides, we're here to have good, safe fun. Now, a national level match with some good prize money or prizes is probably a different story.

I disagree w/ 5346 mag restriction rule, however, physical layout & stage design at York typically doesn't make larger mags beneficial, it also causes some issues in some of the rifle dump barrels. So it's not that horrible.

Ken R said...

Last year I had a competitor try to lay his rifle down instead of putting it in the barrel. I yelled No very loud. He got the message and put it in the barrel. I was concerned he was going to step in front of the muzzle and I would have DQ'd him. Do you let them do it or go on the side of safety. I went with safety.

Jeremy M said...

Help me understand. I used a 48rd mag for the past year in multi gun. What rule book should I be reading? Time plus scoring is not USPSA scoring so why use USPSA multi gun rules? I thought this was "Out law multi gun"? Maybe it's just me but it seems like two different rule books... OR I'm way confused?

Joe P said...

Mike - Your take is the exact mindset I have when I have RO'd at our monthly matches.

This comment "Now, a national level match with some good prize money or prizes is probably a different story." is exactly why I asked the question. I will be part of the staff for the FNH match this year and I know there are other staffers reading the blog just for the quizzes to prepare themselves for staffing the match.

Corey G said...

Its my take at a national match, unlike local fun matches coaching is not allowed and as such correcting a competitor mid match is something not done. I would not allow them to do something to endanger themshelves or others knowly but if your going to stop them you have to realize its a DQ at that point. At the last 3 man 3 gun match at York, I was one of the Ro's that had to disqualify a team becuase they put a shotgun in a barrel with a riffle(actually I went and got Howard so as to confure and make sure). I was not actually running that team at the time as my team was next up, but as soon as the guy did it I had the deep stare from everyone else in the squad and looked at what happened and stopped the run right there. If I had been running him as it being only a fun match I would have corrected him before he let go of it, at FNH I would not.

Howard C. Thompson said...

There is a link to the rules we are using at York and fnh on the post for quiz one.

Warnings are a slippery slope. Where we have yelled "muzzle" at someone about to break the 180 or "finger" for someone before DQing someone for finger in triggerguard I don't really know there is a proper warning for someone about to bunker improperly. The whole warning vs coaching argument is interesting

Mike Stephens said...

Joe P - I don't what to get off topic from the original post but to answer your question, the stakes are much higher so things change a little. It's mainly about consistency. Small inconsistencies from RO's can & do change match rankings, course structure, or even get stages thrown out at a big match but you have to do what you have to do to keep your range safe. So stay consistent & you'll be OK. Either way, you should discuss with your Match Director or Range Master at that match about what's appropriate or not. However, at big 3-gun matches, good RO's cover those "sticky" issues during the stage briefing or walk-thru so it's conveyed to all competitor's to keep it consistant for the entire match. You're going to walk the enitire squad up to those 2 side by side dump barrels & tell them 1 will have a gun in, don't put 2 guns on top of each other, we will have to DQ you & we don't want to DQ anyone. And then you're going to verify that everyone understands.

Mike Stephens said...

I feel the need to clarify that what I said above should also apply to York and our RO's, not just at big matches.

If you're an RO, you should identify safety concerns during the stage breifing. Shooters should do the same. If something looks questionable, ask the RO(s) for clarification.

Joe P said...

Great discussion... Thanks Mike

Steve M. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave W said...

Regarding scoring, referencing 6.1.1 a target is neutralized by one A hit or one B hit or two hits on the target. (Unless otherwise stipulated...). Last year we routinely said one A hit or two anywhere on the target. Is this a rule change?

Howard C. Thompson said...

This is not a rule change. Perhaps it was a communication error. The rule is and has been 1 A or B or 2 of anything else.

Joe M said...

Interesting read, everyone, and thanks for posting these quizzes. I am attending the shoot this Sunday and it will be my first competitive shoot to participate in. That being said, I appreciate that it looks as though you are running this in accordance to the rules but aren't there to slap us with a quick DQ because we're still learning the process. I didn't see the first quizz, but I'll go back and look at the rule book for certain now, although I have to admit, I learn these a whole lot better hands on than reading legal ease rules.

Thanks again, and I look forward to meeting everyone this weekend.

Larry Houck said...

Guys please remember we are not a local match. While coaching at a local match is almost universally accepted it creates a problem at a higher level as the ro wants to help out. Once this occurs you must then help everyone each time and then it can be an issue for arbitration as one person can say that another got more help then they did. I would recommend once the buzzer goes off let the shooter progress throught the COF. If an unsafe act occurs stop the shooter and issue the dq. Remember you are only enforcing the rules. It is the shooters responsibility to know the rules. I will cover it in the shooters briefing as well as a reminder in the walk through.

Larry Houck said...

What if question 3 occurred during the shooting of the course of fire???

Larry Houck said...

Ken...help me remember where this competitor tried to lay his rifle on. I only know one stage that they could have done that on.

Now if you can not move in front of the muzzle such as a table and they abandoned it laying on the table....is it unsafe? I say no. Just a brain fart. I would issue a procedural for failure to to properly place the firearm in an approved grounding container. This would not be a dq able offense.

Thouguts? Please verify in the rules if I can do this.

Larry Houck said...

Take a look at 2.5.3.......I would be wrong for not stopping and issuing a dq for failure to place the firearm in a desigated grounding container. Now think of this if we did not enforce this....shooter A engages the required targets with his rifle, unloads it and the tosses it beside the barrel in a safe direction. Thus gaining a huge advantage. Now according to the rules he grounded in a safe direction but not an approved container.

By enforcing this rule we keep unsafe acts from potentially happening.

Larry

Dan S said...

Larry,
Ken was working Stage 5.

Dan S said...

2.5.3.3 in my mind is missing a word or two, such as prohibited, or resulting in disqualification.